Klima: War Isn't About Dying Heroically — You Have to Survive Heroically and Destroy as Many of These Scum as Possible

"Prepare now, or there will be trouble"

What does the commander of Ukraine's most important drone unit advise the Poles?

Andriy Klymenko: No one is made for war. But during war you have to, damn it, scratch, bite, strike blows so hard that the enemy is reduced to zero.

Senior Lieutenant Andriy Klymenko, call sign Klima, commander of the legendary 414th Separate Unmanned Systems Brigade "Magyar's Birds." He replaced Robert Brovdi, call sign Magyar, who now heads the Unmanned Systems Forces of the Armed Forces of Ukraine. Klymenko holds the title of Hero of Ukraine. He is a taekwondo world champion.

We spoke in the brigade's underground command post.

Piotr Andrusieczko: Do you still remember the first successful combat use of strike drones?

Andriy Klymenko: Yes, it's like first love. The first successful drop was carried out by the brigade's senior sergeant, call sign Ara, in late spring 2022. He dropped the munition with incredible precision from an enormously high altitude — one you wouldn't normally drop grenades from. The only thing I can't say for certain is whether it was 200 or 250 meters. It's like trying to hit a bucket with a cigarette butt from the tenth floor.

But that's how the circumstances worked out — the stars were favorable. Or maybe our desire for it to succeed was so strong that the munition landed exactly where it needed to. The fire, damn it, those emotions… It's impossible to describe what you feel when that happens for the first time.

Ukrainians need three drones to destroy a Russian tank

What tasks does "Magyar's Birds" carry out on the battlefield today?

Our task is simple: we have to destroy the enemy. We do this every day and every night. "The Birds" do this on an industrial scale, incomparable to other units. We are the calling card of our army. Not because it sounds nice, but because the facts speak for themselves.

Let me give a brief example. Our unit has several Heroes of Ukraine, one of whom recently returned from a mission. All of our commanders are active pilots, people with practical experience.

Our Hero of Ukraine went on a mission together with a crew that included newcomers. He trained them himself. His crew's rotation lasted 10 days. In those 10 days they eliminated 108 enemies. Of these, about 80 were "two-hundreds" [killed — ed.], the rest "three-hundreds" [wounded — ed.]. This was done by a single crew of four servicemen.

Not every FPV drone [a drone controlled by an operator who sees in real time what the drone's camera sees] hits precisely, but mathematically you can calculate how much each kill of this scum costs. Today, one dollar invested in drones corresponds to 116 dollars in enemy losses. That's a significant difference.

What is the effectiveness you mentioned? Which of the drones hits the target?

On average, every third one.

You mentioned that the war is changing quickly. What role do unmanned systems play on the modern battlefield today?

Everything from supporting assault operations to aviation. Everything necessary to influence the enemy.

The Unmanned Systems Forces are a unique branch of the military which, although quite young, has already made war impossible without it. We understand that today a tank is practically worth nothing. Ten mechanized vehicles moving along the front line simply won't reach their target. It's even better for us when the enemy launches an attack with armored vehicles, because we destroy it even earlier.

How many drones do you need to immobilize a tank?

On average, three. We try to force the enemy to act in a way that's convenient for us.

Meaning how?

We direct them into places where we can destroy them, blocking approach roads with remote mining. That's how kill zones are created.

With a sufficient number of appropriate assets of various types along the sector of responsibility, you can stop any breakthrough of the front: a mechanized attack, when the "moto-pidary" [Russian soldiers on motorcycles] come, on quad bikes, on foot, on camels — it doesn't matter what they're riding, because they too are trying to adapt.

Why have the enemy stopped carrying out so many mechanized assaults?

Because they were losing equipment, and it was ineffective. Now they're thinking about how to attack differently, how to reach the first line another way. So they, damn it, scatter like cockroaches, spreading out along the whole front and trying to infiltrate one by one, in pairs, in threes.

War isn't about dying heroically.

We have to do everything in our power to survive heroically and destroy as many of these scum as possible.

From Infantry to Drones

You began your combat path in the infantry.

It was an unprepared territorial defense unit. Just civilians who were issued rifles. At the start of the Russian invasion they took part in the liberation of Kyiv Oblast, and from April they were transferred south, toward Kherson.

It was there, in April and May 2022, that we began using drones for reconnaissance, and from June we started using them to destroy targets.

When did you realize that the future of war belongs to unmanned systems?

I quickly realized that it's not enough to just run from shells and wonder what's behind the hill. You need to look beyond the hill — either go there on your own feet, or use technology that will help you do it.

When you raise your head to see something, or sit at a windowsill with binoculars or a night-vision device, you can be hit at any moment.

Our commander very quickly foresaw that we needed to test drones, that we needed to see what was happening in front of us. And that's how we started searching for the enemy. And once we started seeing him, mere observation was no longer enough — we wanted to inflict losses on him.

At first, thanks to drones, we started adjusting mortar and artillery fire. Then we noticed that it didn't always work perfectly, because it took time before our guys aimed and hit the target, and then they still had to retreat, because they'd be spotted.

And the whole time, we're standing in place watching the enemy. So let's drop something on his head. We started using hand grenades, hanging them from drones, and that's how it all developed.

Then came Bakhmut

Then came Bakhmut.

The development of our unit was, for me, an experience similar to what I'd encountered in sports. You need teamwork, high morale, trust, the right atmosphere. And when the question arose of our battalion being withdrawn to be replaced by other servicemen, the commander asked:

"Guys, we're being pulled out. I'm not going anywhere on rotation. We're starting to destroy the enemy and doing it very effectively. I want to keep inflicting losses on the enemy.

Whoever is tired, whoever doesn't feel capable of doing this, whoever has doubts — no questions asked. I will respect you for the rest of my life for taking up arms and being ready for anything the moment it all began. But now a new stage has come. Decide for yourselves who goes on rotation and who comes with me to Bakhmut."

And what happened?

We all decided we were moving on together.

It didn't matter where. What mattered was who with.

Although in late 2022, early 2023, the situation in Bakhmut was very hot. We went there blind, but full of energy, and there was a cloud of those scum there every day.

Robert Yosypovych [Brovdi] was handling supply organization and commanding. And we ran from point to point to get things done. We couldn't get enough of it, as if we'd started breathing new air.

We'd bring in a flash drive with recordings of what we'd done, so everyone could celebrate the successes. Damn it, it charged everyone up. First Person View drones appeared — drones where the operator sees the image from a camera mounted on the drone.

That was, man, a completely new, incomprehensible thing! Nobody knew what to do with it! And we took it on from the very beginning. At first I didn't even know how to arm this drone, but today the FPV component of our unit is the best in the world.

There are no FPV specialists like the ones on Magyar's team.

For a long time, a lot of things didn't work out for us. For example, hitting the target, because the drone would strike nearby or crash along the way. Some lost their drive, some lost hope, but the commander believed. And I understood that I couldn't let him down. When we first assembled a drone and started flying it on the base grounds, the commander asked:

"How much time do you need for us to achieve our first successes?"

I said: "Three days — and we'll do something powerful." But I didn't realize how far we still had to go. Compared to where we are today, everything back then was truly at a primitive level.

The first use of FPV

The first use of FPV?

The first successful FPV strike was carried out by my crew in June 2022 in Kherson Oblast. And one of the crew members happened to be recovering [from injury] at that time.

To this day he still very much regrets not being with us then. But he was just as happy about the result as everyone else. When you achieve some success, it doesn't just give you hope — it also gives you the understanding that you're moving in the right direction.

In Bakhmut we climbed onto rooftops, risked our lives, so that, working at our fingertips' limit [at the edge of your strength, when your fingers go numb from the cold but you still need to perform fine movements], we could fly a kilometer, a kilometer and a half, and kill someone.

Shelling is underway. The building is shaking, and we're bursting with adrenaline, launching drone after drone, because it's working and we need more. A tank rolled out and started firing. I'm already flying. It's winter, it's impossible to describe.

Those who have even a bit of experience working with drones understand what it's like when your hands are shaking, when you're crouching with your head stuck out in some strange pose, leaning out through a window to work from there.

All of this throws you off balance a bit. And on top of that, the wind starts hitting you terribly, and there's nowhere to hide. Now we have the ability to work remotely, but back then there was nothing like that. You have to pilot all the way through, until the drone reaches the target, and only then find somewhere to hide.

So, the tank is firing, Ara is shouting: "Brother, drop the controller [the device used to control the drone] and run, damn it, we're about to get blown to pieces!"

And then, when I finally get there and hit it, that same Ara says: "Sending the next one."

And what do you say then?

I say: "Okay." We flew again. And again. The result always charges you up. Now, of course, it's not the same emotions as at the beginning.

They can't be compared. Today you perceive these kills as something you have to do. You're fulfilling your combat-sortie quota. You're at work.

How many guys went with you to Bakhmut, and how many came back?

Magyar's unit itself did not suffer fatal losses in Bakhmut. We had shrapnel wounds and concussions, but none were fatal.

It was precisely this effectiveness and the absence of losses that became the basis for higher command giving Magyar more authority, providing better supply, and allowing the unit's numbers to increase.

What is most important to you as a commander?

Above all, that those who went on a mission come back in the same composition. Because when the guys have already caught a strong wave of success and gotten used to a high number of kills, and the crew didn't reach that number, there's a lingering feeling:

"Damn it, we went out and didn't burn 10 tanks or kill a company of scum, so the trip was shit."

I say: "No. You did the most important thing. You came back in the same composition you left with." As for destroyed targets, that's not the first day and it won't be the last.

That's why our mission number one is to preserve this human potential. Without these people, there will be no such results, no such number of defeated enemies.

What Comes Next for the Technology

Can the combat history of "Magyar's Birds" be used to predict how technology on the battlefield will develop further?

Let's take FPV. For a while we thought we'd squeezed everything out of it. But analog FPVs still fly, and we keep improving them.

For example, our drone drops one battery along the way — that is, it sheds excess weight — and covers a distance of 80 kilometers without any problem. I can say on behalf of our unit: we drive, we fly, we attack, we destroy enemy equipment, we shoot down drones, we clear the sky, we fight electronic drones, and now we also operate on water.

Let's explain to readers how analog drones differ from digital ones.

FPV drones can be equipped with digital or analog radio communication, as well as a fiber-optic control system.

In their basic parameters they're similar, but the key advantage of fiber-optic drones is that control commands and the video signal are transmitted through a thin wire. Thanks to this, the enemy cannot jam this channel using electronic warfare or intercept the video signal using conventional radio-interception methods. Recently, prices for fiber-optic FPV drones have risen significantly due to the rising cost of Chinese components.

We know how drone operators win. But how do they die? How dangerous is the work of drone pilots?

We suffer 80 percent of our losses on the way to a position and while returning.

So, during movement within the kill zone.

Robert Brovdi and the Secret of "the Birds"

What kind of commander is Major Brovdi, the current commander of the Unmanned Systems Forces, who created and led "the Birds"? What's the secret of his success? Because it's not just that he understood the role of drones.

He had no connection to the army at all until the moment of the full-scale invasion.

His exceptional trait is managerial effectiveness.

He was a businessman who carried out large projects — he knew how to create them, manage them, and grow them. His experience in the civilian sector proved key to reforming the current military model, which needs to be as simplified as possible. Costs need to be lower, effectiveness higher.

Add honesty and integrity to that, and you get an excellent commander.

How did you actually meet?

On February 24, 2022, at a recruitment point.

I watched how he acted in various critical situations.

I was struck by his decisions, which afterward brought either results, or success, or the conviction that we had done everything right.

We were lucky to have someone next to us who united us and made everyone understand that we needed to develop, and that we could be very useful in the war that was underway.

What Can Ukraine Advise Its Partners?

What could you advise Ukraine's partners? Everyone is watching what's happening on the Ukrainian battlefield. But what should Poland and other states do right now to protect themselves against a potential Russian attack?

I always think about what I would do in the enemy's place.

I think about how I would counter his moves.

That's how ideas emerge for improving our situation, for blocking the enemy's logistics. This knowledge needs to be soaked up like a sponge. Right now there's an opportunity to learn from experience, from solutions that produce results, that make it possible to defend one's own towns and not let the enemy advance.

The development of unmanned forces in other countries today is an urgent necessity. Military doctrine has already changed. Processes within NATO's framework and within existing armed forces need to be reviewed, reformatted, and have something added to them. This needs to work comprehensively.

But how do you translate that into concrete steps?

First: create an independent Unmanned Systems Forces brigade.

If not a separate branch of the military, then at least one autonomous brigade capable of operating in all three key domains of unmanned systems use: in the air, on the ground, and on water, as well as intercepting aerial targets.

Second: recruit people with civilian experience above all. Ukraine's experience shows that people from a traditional military background often adapt more slowly and are more skeptical of new technologies. A unit like this needs people open to rapid change, experimentation, and innovation.

Third: infrastructure needs to be prepared right now along the most vulnerable sections of the border. This means a network of fiber-optic connections, small-scale air defense, and radar devices.

Thanks to this, in the event of a threat, such a brigade would be able to connect to the infrastructure in the relevant sector and conduct combat operations remotely: intercepting enemy drones, destroying enemy personnel and equipment, while the operators themselves could be located a significant distance from the front line.

The Unmanned Systems Forces make up only 2.5 percent of all of Ukraine's defense forces, but are responsible for over 30 percent of the kills within the enemy's military system.

The enemy understands this too, and isn't sitting idle.

Do you think Russia already has sufficiently developed unmanned forces?

I can't imagine what those countries the enemy moves against will do if they don't have the corresponding unmanned components.

The Russians have learned a lot and, damn it, keep learning. They shouldn't be underestimated. You can laugh and say they're homeless people, vagrants who ride horses and attack. But you can't ignore the fact that they already have a sufficient number of specialized servicemen.

So it's not enough to simply create unmanned forces. It has to be done right, taking into account the experience we already have today.

When I hear that someone still doesn't grasp this need, it simply doesn't fit in my head, because these are elementary things.

Otherwise there will be trouble, if something suddenly happens.

"I Liked My Former Life"

Before the big war, you were involved in sports.

Before 2022, it seemed to me that my life had already taken shape. I managed to take part in a taekwondo championship in North Korea.

I was already coaching children then. I was completely absorbed in what I was doing and wanted to build an incredible team with many champions. Just like they write in books: live so that you never work a single day.

And that means doing what you love. I had a fantastic team, countless ideas, a clearly defined path. And then the enemy attacked us, and all of it collapsed like a house of cards.

It's simply a shattered life for every person who was pursuing their calling and had a set of goals ahead of them.

I liked my former life.

North Korea

You took part in the ITF-style taekwondo world championship in North Korea, and later their military showed up here. What did you feel seeing them here?

We carried out operations against them. We caught them right in this very place where we're talking now, because part of our group was doing exactly that. The guys joked that I'd already kicked their ass once and would do it again.

I was in North Korea in 2011 and in 2017. What I saw there is not life.

It's simply an automated program, where everyone wears the same clothes, moves according to a schedule.

And to me that's incomprehensible. There's no freedom, no right to choose, no life. They assigned intelligence-service officers to us who knew everything about us. Their job was to make sure we didn't see anything we shouldn't and that no one photographed anything.

They took our phones away already at the airport in China. In 2017 they showed us an idyllic picture: supposedly civilization reigns there, the shops were already working, housing had gotten better. In the stands sat identical fans who applauded on command. But it was their own athlete who felt the greater psychological pressure.

And at that 2017 championship, things worked out so that I won not only the championship. I was also given the cup for best athlete of the tournament, which is equivalent to the title of absolute champion.

That was a moment I had dreamed of and strived for my whole life.

"Now We Have to Hit Them in the Face Again, But Differently"

And now we have to hit them in the face again, but differently — not with a hand, not with a foot, but with a drone.

We became who we became because of the conditions we found ourselves in.

No one is made for war. But during war you have to, damn it, scratch, bite, strike blows so hard that the enemy is reduced to zero.

Is a return to pre-war life possible after such an extreme experience? After the war, will you go back to coaching children?

- I don't know what I'll want after the war. But I know very well that we can't just squander what we've achieved. And when the moment of "stop" comes, it will be a pause, not "the end."

We will not lay down our arms. That won't happen. Our life will never be what it was — I know that for certain. I have no doubt that they'll still want to come after us.

I know who we're dealing with, and I'm not going to turn my back on them in the hope that they won't catch up with me.

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